Simple question: After all the fallout from the OGL - did you leave never to return, and where did you go?
Stupid jokes aside (because if you left, you cannot read and reply to this post, right?), how many players have D&D lost to other games? I'm honestly curious, because my guess is that basically no one left, or at least the number is so small that you'd need a microscope to see it.
Does anyone have anything like numbers on this? I saw an estimate of how many players there are world wide - one from '19, and one from '23. In '19, provided the numbers are right, it was 15 million, in '23, it was 50 million. Which is like an unbelievable jump (hence, I seriously doubt it).
But ... anyone have better sources or better insight than me? =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Me personally, I did originally cancel my subscription. However, once the OGL was reinstated with commitments not to go back on it, I re-subscribed - I still play D&D and my campaigns benefit from using the Master Tier subscription to share purchased content with players.
My intention however would be to cancel my subscription should any such shenanigans occur again. The way WotC conducted themselves was..... less than satisfactory (to use a severe case of British understatement).
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#Open D&D
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Out of the two groups I routinely play with, both of our regular DMs cancelled their subscriptions to DnDBeyond and one group is in the process of swapping to Pathfinder.
The two tables I play at aren't going anywhere--we're having too much fun. I remain optimistic about '24.
In which way are you optimistic? Is it your hope that the fun will die, so that you can motivate your groups to move along to other things? Or the opposite?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The two tables I play at aren't going anywhere--we're having too much fun. I remain optimistic about '24.
In which way are you optimistic? Is it your hope that the fun will die, so that you can motivate your groups to move along to other things? Or the opposite?
I'm optimistic that Wizards will keep working with third party contributors (I am very excited about the Dungeon Dudes drop today), and that the OneD&D ruleset and VTT will be a success.
The best information we have about the meaningfulness of the OGL to the greater community comes from Wizards’ polling—their OGL poll brought in a fifth of the voters of their 2024 playtest content, indicating significant, but not overwhelming interest. The clear confusion is that the overwhelming majority of players care far more about the game’s development and direction—and thus are showing their long-term commitment to the game—then over a licensing dispute.
Anecdotally, outside of these forums, no one I knew super cared. There was one person who said the OGL was causing them to leave D&D for Pathfinder—but they were a militant Pathfinder advocate before the OGL thing, so it did not actually change anything about their opinion (they’re also back to D&D, since they realised it is far easier to get and retain players for D&D games than Pathfinder ones). The rest of my social circle expressed complete indifference, mild curiosity followed by complete indifference once they got more information, or frustration at the angry fans for their legal ignorance and wanton spread of misinformation. Overall, no one I know other than here, either in my playgroups or the other online communities I am in, actually changed anything about how they played based on this issue.
At the local gaming cafe, I really don't know how many were even aware of the OGL, but I am confident to say that 5e has gone from 80% of all games played to more like 60%, even 50%. I know of a Warhammer Fantasy table, two PF2e, one PF1e table, plus my AD&D 1e table, all that run regularly, and there are likely more I don't know of. Pre-Covid there were no PF or AD&D games there. I would love to see even more games tried. My 1e table is trying out an OSE funnel on Sat, and there is someone in the local Discord trying to get a 3rd PF2e table up and running.
Oh, and of the 5e tables at the cafe, I know at least 2 that are NOT going anywhere near 6e when it comes out. Any of that material is being banned. But then, 6e is ultimately not going to be conducive to in-person sessions, as opposed to virtual sessions, so I don't think wotc really cares that much about that.
Oh, and of the 5e tables at the cafe, I know at least 2 that are NOT going anywhere near 6e when it comes out. Any of that material is being banned. But then, 6e is ultimately not going to be conducive to in-person sessions, as opposed to virtual sessions, so I don't think wotc really cares that much about that.
First off, it is not 6e. Second, those of us who have been playing the 2024 updates know that it is just as conductive to in-person play as the 2014 rules are. You know both these things; you have been told both these things multiple times. Really not sure why you insist on spreading misinformation—knowingly repeating the same falsehoods strongly indicates you have less than savoury motivations for being here.
D&D players, as a whole, are scared of change. I expect once 2024 releases, and it becomes clear just how little change there is, many of the holdouts who have legitimate concerns (so, not the militant anti-Wizards folks, the anti-5e folks, and the bigots who don’t like that Wizards is trying to be more inclusive) will begin to adapt.
I have no actual data, but given how internet outrage seems to go, I would wager that the number of people who left ne'er to return is quite small in comparison to both total consumers and even vocal critics at the height of the controversy.
What I have noticed is that I'm seeing more content creators branching out to feature other systems or increasingly system-agnostic material. True, some of the bigger names (Matt Colville, Critical Role) were already planning to release their own systems and the OGL crisis happened to coincide with that timing. Others (Bob World Builder, DMDave, One Shot Questers) have changed their strategy a little because of what happened. D&D remains the moneymaker for these creators, though, and some have been open about that.
Anecdotally, outside of these forums, no one I knew super cared. There was one person who said the OGL was causing them to leave D&D for Pathfinder—but they were a militant Pathfinder advocate before the OGL thing, so it did not actually change anything about their opinion (they’re also back to D&D, since they realised it is far easier to get and retain players for D&D games than Pathfinder ones). The rest of my social circle expressed complete indifference, mild curiosity followed by complete indifference once they got more information, or frustration at the angry fans for their legal ignorance and wanton spread of misinformation. Overall, no one I know other than here, either in my playgroups or the other online communities I am in, actually changed anything about how they played based on this issue.
This has been my overall experience as well.
The outrage had little reach outside of the forums, youtubers, and social media sites like reddit, which only represents a small portion of the community as a whole.
None of my players knew what was going on, nor did they care. None of the discord servers I'm in even talked about it or mentioned it at all, and that's probably somewhere around 500 to 600 players and DM's spread out across like a dozen servers combined. In fact, I don't think any news about what WotC has been up to, such as the recent layoffs and the Pinkerton stuff, has been discussed either. But there are a few threads in a couple of servers talking about One D&D and the changes they like or hate, so they are at least keeping up with that stuff.
I don't think some people realize how busy folks are with their own lives when they are not playing D&D, so a good majority know little about the happenings of the inner D&D world beyond just what happens in their game.
When you have to work, have kids to take care of, bills to pay, a household to manage; something like the OGL debacle is going to go unnoticed, or is just something most people don't have time to care about because they have their own personal stuff to worry about.
Anecdotally, nobody that I know personally was even aware that there was a controversy. Literally, the only mention they ever heard about it was from me - and I was only testing the waters. Storm in a teacup, really - some people were incredibly vocal, and made it sound a lot more all-encompassing than it really was. I daresay some left over it, but given how popular 5e is, I strongly suspect that the hobby never had a net loss of players. I have personally brought more people into the game since then than people I can confirm actually left. Most of those that were ranting about it weren't really 5e players anyway.
Honestly though, what I've seen since has changed. I still think the contract was bad, that it had to change and be less intrusive - I also still think WotC handled it poorly. But from what I've seen since from the other side, the 3rd party side...I thought at the time it was just an overreaction (massively so, but still an overreaction) to WotC's actions, but connecting some of the dots, it seems I was overly naïve and it looks at least some of the 3rd party reactions and behaviour was a bit shady, even manipulative. Nothing solid, but it's a bad look for them, from my point of view.
I saw literally no difference in the ever-growing number of accounts listed at the bottom of the forums. I saw some accounts get deleted, but I imagine even most of those who had their account obliterated have found their way back. It was a lot of anger and mostly empty threats from what I can see.
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DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form| Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
In my group of about 15-18 people across 3 games, two of us ( DM and myself) knew what was going on, maybe 1-2 more had a vague sense there was some sort of kerfuffle. While it was happening, the two of us who knew casually checked out some other systems (both of us are rpg vets who’ve been playing for 40ish years). We never did find a different system that would have worked for our group. They were all either too rules crunchy or not crunchy enough, where D&D 5e really hits the Goldilocks zone. Then, the Creative Commons thing happened, and we stopped bothering to look.
I saw literally no difference in the ever-growing number of accounts listed at the bottom of the forums. I saw some accounts get deleted, but I imagine even most of those who had their account obliterated have found their way back. It was a lot of anger and mostly empty threats from what I can see.
I suspect most of the accounts here that got suspended during that whole brouhaha were either alt accounts, or have since been replaced by alt accounts
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Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Lakmar, wide-eyed and curious Forest Folk warrior of nature (Way of the Astral Self monk) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I unsubscribed until they reverted the changes. I think I was the only one who cared a lot in my group but some of them expressed their annoyance with the changes.
At the time, it didn't bother me at all. I work in online communities and knew that there'd be a storm of energy and then it'd die out and be business as usual. I think the outrage did a good job in getting the OGL changes modified for the better, but it wasn't going to sustain for years or impact the bottom line.
That noted, I think it was a very good moment for third party and non-D&D providers to get more awareness of their games and work. Given the scale of things I'm willing to believe they gained customers in a way that impacted their bottom line positively, while WotC didn't see much of a sustained blip.
Oddly, it became a bit of a win/win/win setup for WotC/Third Party/RPG Consumers. We are more aware of our options and everyone is producing stuff for the market.
Been here since I started D&D in 2017. I did not cancel my Master Tier subscription. The OGL draft contract seemed pretty fair, so I was a little surprised Wizards bent over backwards and put the OGL in Creative Commons and cutting off a potential source of revenue. I was not impressed with how some third party publishers spread disinformation though.
My primary group went "eh". We've always done original stuff ("homebrew" so none of it had an effect.
Locally, of the three largest shops and groups, only about 2% left, but it was a mixed bag of why. it seems I may have a local group after all, too, which is, um, kinda startling.
In addition, all the places have grown in number of new players -- a good extra 20 to 25% of folks are new above and beyond the older numbers. bG3 is about a third of that, the movie about 10%, and the rest just heard something about it.
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Only a DM since 1980 (2000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA
Simple question: After all the fallout from the OGL - did you leave never to return, and where did you go?
Stupid jokes aside (because if you left, you cannot read and reply to this post, right?), how many players have D&D lost to other games? I'm honestly curious, because my guess is that basically no one left, or at least the number is so small that you'd need a microscope to see it.
Does anyone have anything like numbers on this? I saw an estimate of how many players there are world wide - one from '19, and one from '23. In '19, provided the numbers are right, it was 15 million, in '23, it was 50 million. Which is like an unbelievable jump (hence, I seriously doubt it).
But ... anyone have better sources or better insight than me? =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Me personally, I did originally cancel my subscription. However, once the OGL was reinstated with commitments not to go back on it, I re-subscribed - I still play D&D and my campaigns benefit from using the Master Tier subscription to share purchased content with players.
My intention however would be to cancel my subscription should any such shenanigans occur again. The way WotC conducted themselves was..... less than satisfactory (to use a severe case of British understatement).
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.
Out of the two groups I routinely play with, both of our regular DMs cancelled their subscriptions to DnDBeyond and one group is in the process of swapping to Pathfinder.
The two tables I play at aren't going anywhere--we're having too much fun. I remain optimistic about '24.
Neutral Good
Characters in active campaigns:
Rowan Wood elf, 10 Circle of Stars Druid
Wyll Forest Gnome, 4 Divination Wizard
In which way are you optimistic? Is it your hope that the fun will die, so that you can motivate your groups to move along to other things? Or the opposite?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'm optimistic that Wizards will keep working with third party contributors (I am very excited about the Dungeon Dudes drop today), and that the OneD&D ruleset and VTT will be a success.
Neutral Good
Characters in active campaigns:
Rowan Wood elf, 10 Circle of Stars Druid
Wyll Forest Gnome, 4 Divination Wizard
The best information we have about the meaningfulness of the OGL to the greater community comes from Wizards’ polling—their OGL poll brought in a fifth of the voters of their 2024 playtest content, indicating significant, but not overwhelming interest. The clear confusion is that the overwhelming majority of players care far more about the game’s development and direction—and thus are showing their long-term commitment to the game—then over a licensing dispute.
Anecdotally, outside of these forums, no one I knew super cared. There was one person who said the OGL was causing them to leave D&D for Pathfinder—but they were a militant Pathfinder advocate before the OGL thing, so it did not actually change anything about their opinion (they’re also back to D&D, since they realised it is far easier to get and retain players for D&D games than Pathfinder ones). The rest of my social circle expressed complete indifference, mild curiosity followed by complete indifference once they got more information, or frustration at the angry fans for their legal ignorance and wanton spread of misinformation. Overall, no one I know other than here, either in my playgroups or the other online communities I am in, actually changed anything about how they played based on this issue.
At the local gaming cafe, I really don't know how many were even aware of the OGL, but I am confident to say that 5e has gone from 80% of all games played to more like 60%, even 50%. I know of a Warhammer Fantasy table, two PF2e, one PF1e table, plus my AD&D 1e table, all that run regularly, and there are likely more I don't know of. Pre-Covid there were no PF or AD&D games there. I would love to see even more games tried. My 1e table is trying out an OSE funnel on Sat, and there is someone in the local Discord trying to get a 3rd PF2e table up and running.
Oh, and of the 5e tables at the cafe, I know at least 2 that are NOT going anywhere near 6e when it comes out. Any of that material is being banned. But then, 6e is ultimately not going to be conducive to in-person sessions, as opposed to virtual sessions, so I don't think wotc really cares that much about that.
First off, it is not 6e. Second, those of us who have been playing the 2024 updates know that it is just as conductive to in-person play as the 2014 rules are. You know both these things; you have been told both these things multiple times. Really not sure why you insist on spreading misinformation—knowingly repeating the same falsehoods strongly indicates you have less than savoury motivations for being here.
D&D players, as a whole, are scared of change. I expect once 2024 releases, and it becomes clear just how little change there is, many of the holdouts who have legitimate concerns (so, not the militant anti-Wizards folks, the anti-5e folks, and the bigots who don’t like that Wizards is trying to be more inclusive) will begin to adapt.
I have no actual data, but given how internet outrage seems to go, I would wager that the number of people who left ne'er to return is quite small in comparison to both total consumers and even vocal critics at the height of the controversy.
What I have noticed is that I'm seeing more content creators branching out to feature other systems or increasingly system-agnostic material. True, some of the bigger names (Matt Colville, Critical Role) were already planning to release their own systems and the OGL crisis happened to coincide with that timing. Others (Bob World Builder, DMDave, One Shot Questers) have changed their strategy a little because of what happened. D&D remains the moneymaker for these creators, though, and some have been open about that.
This has been my overall experience as well.
The outrage had little reach outside of the forums, youtubers, and social media sites like reddit, which only represents a small portion of the community as a whole.
None of my players knew what was going on, nor did they care. None of the discord servers I'm in even talked about it or mentioned it at all, and that's probably somewhere around 500 to 600 players and DM's spread out across like a dozen servers combined. In fact, I don't think any news about what WotC has been up to, such as the recent layoffs and the Pinkerton stuff, has been discussed either. But there are a few threads in a couple of servers talking about One D&D and the changes they like or hate, so they are at least keeping up with that stuff.
I don't think some people realize how busy folks are with their own lives when they are not playing D&D, so a good majority know little about the happenings of the inner D&D world beyond just what happens in their game.
When you have to work, have kids to take care of, bills to pay, a household to manage; something like the OGL debacle is going to go unnoticed, or is just something most people don't have time to care about because they have their own personal stuff to worry about.
Anecdotally, nobody that I know personally was even aware that there was a controversy. Literally, the only mention they ever heard about it was from me - and I was only testing the waters. Storm in a teacup, really - some people were incredibly vocal, and made it sound a lot more all-encompassing than it really was. I daresay some left over it, but given how popular 5e is, I strongly suspect that the hobby never had a net loss of players. I have personally brought more people into the game since then than people I can confirm actually left. Most of those that were ranting about it weren't really 5e players anyway.
Honestly though, what I've seen since has changed. I still think the contract was bad, that it had to change and be less intrusive - I also still think WotC handled it poorly. But from what I've seen since from the other side, the 3rd party side...I thought at the time it was just an overreaction (massively so, but still an overreaction) to WotC's actions, but connecting some of the dots, it seems I was overly naïve and it looks at least some of the 3rd party reactions and behaviour was a bit shady, even manipulative. Nothing solid, but it's a bad look for them, from my point of view.
Want to play D&D? Try the following resources first (each section withing vertical bars is a clickable link to find the resource).
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They are mostly short adventures intended to be completed in one or two sessions (each session being a few hours long).
I saw literally no difference in the ever-growing number of accounts listed at the bottom of the forums. I saw some accounts get deleted, but I imagine even most of those who had their account obliterated have found their way back. It was a lot of anger and mostly empty threats from what I can see.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
You can try DDB for free using the Basic Rules, free adventures, MCV1:SC, and homebrew. Answers about physical books, purchases, and subbing.
What is it like to be on the forums.
In my group of about 15-18 people across 3 games, two of us ( DM and myself) knew what was going on, maybe 1-2 more had a vague sense there was some sort of kerfuffle. While it was happening, the two of us who knew casually checked out some other systems (both of us are rpg vets who’ve been playing for 40ish years). We never did find a different system that would have worked for our group. They were all either too rules crunchy or not crunchy enough, where D&D 5e really hits the Goldilocks zone. Then, the Creative Commons thing happened, and we stopped bothering to look.
I don't know anyone that even considered OGL as being a factor. We're all continuing to play like normal.
I suspect most of the accounts here that got suspended during that whole brouhaha were either alt accounts, or have since been replaced by alt accounts
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Lakmar, wide-eyed and curious Forest Folk warrior of nature (Way of the Astral Self monk)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I unsubscribed until they reverted the changes. I think I was the only one who cared a lot in my group but some of them expressed their annoyance with the changes.
At the time, it didn't bother me at all. I work in online communities and knew that there'd be a storm of energy and then it'd die out and be business as usual. I think the outrage did a good job in getting the OGL changes modified for the better, but it wasn't going to sustain for years or impact the bottom line.
That noted, I think it was a very good moment for third party and non-D&D providers to get more awareness of their games and work. Given the scale of things I'm willing to believe they gained customers in a way that impacted their bottom line positively, while WotC didn't see much of a sustained blip.
Oddly, it became a bit of a win/win/win setup for WotC/Third Party/RPG Consumers. We are more aware of our options and everyone is producing stuff for the market.
Been here since I started D&D in 2017. I did not cancel my Master Tier subscription. The OGL draft contract seemed pretty fair, so I was a little surprised Wizards bent over backwards and put the OGL in Creative Commons and cutting off a potential source of revenue. I was not impressed with how some third party publishers spread disinformation though.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
My primary group went "eh". We've always done original stuff ("homebrew" so none of it had an effect.
Locally, of the three largest shops and groups, only about 2% left, but it was a mixed bag of why. it seems I may have a local group after all, too, which is, um, kinda startling.
In addition, all the places have grown in number of new players -- a good extra 20 to 25% of folks are new above and beyond the older numbers. bG3 is about a third of that, the movie about 10%, and the rest just heard something about it.
Only a DM since 1980 (2000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA
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